The Divine reality revealed…
The Truth of the Father and the Son
"If we do not understand the reality of Jesus it will be impossible to understand the reality of Sai Baba. And how can we understand the reality of Jesus? We can only understand the reality of Jesus when we understand our own very reality. This is because we are one with God," says Rev. Father Charles Francis Ogada CSSP (from the order of the Holy Ghost Fathers and Brothers), in reply to a question asked by Juan Carlos Ponce de Leon, an ardent Sai devotee from Peru in the course of an interview in January 2007. In this engaging and enlightening conversation you will find the learned Father clarifying concepts and verses, ideas and idiosyncracies that have convoluted the Christian mindset for centuries. As we celebrate the Advent of the Embodiment of Sacrifice and Love this month, it is only apt that we understand and appreciate in the right light the immortal message that He so graciously left behind for us.
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 | The Voice of the Father |  |
Juan: I didn't know that a Father like you was going to speak at Christmas in the Divine Presence. When I heard it my heart felt very happy. Your speech was like a birthday gift to me. Swami also mentioned you a number of times in His discourse.
Father Charles: Yes. He said that I had been devoted to Him right from childhood.
J: You didn't know that?
FC: No. That was a revelation for me. When He said that I remembered all that happened to me during my childhood – my spiritual experiences as a child became alive to me. He was the One who was drawing me, preparing me, and bringing me closer to Himself. And when the right time comes, everything happens according to His Plan.
Drawn into the Divine Net of Sai
J: Tell us how you came to know about Swami.
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| Father Charles Ogada delivering his Christmas speech in the Divine Presence | |
FC: Many people think that they have come to Swami out of their own effort. But this is not the case. It is Swami who has drawn us to Himself. Jesus also said it: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" This is my experience.
I have told you what happened to me when I was seventeen years old… how the Voice said to me, "What would you want to do with this life?" That Voice filled my Soul and Heart with so much Love.
I replied: "What else Father, but to give this life to You." From that very moment the external world became meaningless to me. When you taste the bliss of the Spirit, every other thing will become insipid to you. I started thinking how to give this life to the Father.
Prior to this encounter, I was preparing to enter the University to read medicine. I changed my mind because I thought that the best way to give this life to God was by joining a religious order. I then joined the congregation of the Holy Ghost Fathers and Brothers, the Spiritans.
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| Watch Father Charles express his gratitude to Swami, Christmas 2006 | |
J: Who founded that order?
FC: There are two founders: Claude Pourlat de Place and Francis Paul Liberman. They founded this international missionary order of men who dedicate their entire life for the service of the poor.
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| Poullart Desplaces 1679 - 1709 | | | Francis Libermann 1802-1852 | |
I joined this order at the age of eighteen. Initially everything was beautiful. God filled me with so much spiritual favour and sweetness. But along the way, after nine years of searching hard for God, I could not find Him. The world was already dead to me, and then it was as if God hid Himself from me. Everything was like dead to me. I was passing through the dark night of the soul. I wanted to leave the seminary. Then my Dad got very sick.
The Sublimation of Suffering
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| "Not my will" | |
J: Was your Dad old then?
FC: He was fifty eight years old. I went home to see him because he had sent word that I should come. He had cancer of the bone marrow. The pains were very excruciating. My journey with him in his suffering and death was like an awakening to me. It was a strong push that pulled me to seek the deeper realities of life. That which is seen is not real. That which is not seen is the true reality. Beyond the logic of reason, suffering pulls us to that void of surrender where we are untouched by suffering. My father passed through this transformative power of suffering.
The first stage is the level of rejection. When something befalls us, like cancer, we ask: "Why me?" We try to reject it. At the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to the father; "Abba Father, everything is possible with Thee. Remove this cup of suffering from me." This is our natural experience. But we must go beyond this level. Jesus taught us to go beyond the level of rejection when He prayed; "But not my will, Your Will must be done."
This is the level of acceptance. Acceptance leads to transformation and transformation then transports the soul to that sublime height of surrender. At the gibbet of the cross, the symbol of the final dissolution of the ego, Jesus prayed: "Father, into your Hands I surrender my Spirit" and He merged with the principle of Divinity.
| To gain more insight into the very mysteries of suffering: Why we suffer; How we can transcend suffering; How we can remain in a perpetual state of bliss unaffected by suffering and how we can destroy the very seed of birth and death, please visit our April 2007 Cover Story: Resurrection and Reincarnation: Born not to be born again |
My Dad's sufferings brought him in contact with his inner Self. And in that mystical union, although there was pain, there was no suffering.
J: That was close to his death?
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| I have canceled your cancer of birth and death | |
FC: Yes. About three months to his death. It was like he had discovered the secrets of death. There was light and joy in his eyes and the constant chanting of the sweetness of God's Names anointed his lips. Once he called me to his bed side and told me he was on his way to Calvary. Calvary is the Christian symbol of total surrender and mergence of the soul in the Oversoul. He asked me to book a Novena Mass (a Christian religious service of nine days) for him praying for strength and courage to reach Calvary.
After that he said to me, "I am offering these sufferings of mine for the joy of the world". By then, I never knew that one can be so selfless in prayers. He offered himself not for anything, not even to go to heaven, but for the happiness of the world. Loka Samasta, Sukhino Bhavanthu (Let the people of all the world be happy).
It is unusual and very rare for one to know the hour of one's death. Three days before his death, my dad called us to his bed side (my mother, my immediate younger brother and myself) and told us he will leave his body on Wednesday. This was on Monday, August 25, 1997. He asked us to be ready and prepare for what was going to happen on that day, that is Wednesday, the 27th.
Of course we did not take him seriously because we didn't want to believe that he was leaving us. He told us many things which he wanted us to write down. On that Wednesday, about 3:45 pm, he called three of us by his bed side again and said, "It is time." He gave me his hand and instructed me to start chanting the Names of God. We started chanting the litany of the sacred Heart of Jesus. It was while we were chanting these Holy names of God that he left his body like one who had fallen asleep.
His death was like an awakening to me. One of the things he said to me before his death was: "Don't leave your calling to the priesthood. Many will come to you."
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| How Father Charles first heard Sai's name? Watch him talk at Christmas 06 | |
J: In the beginning he was not happy that you were going to be a priest?
FC: Yes, at the beginning. After my experience with the Voice he wanted me to test its genuineness by first going to the University. But somehow the Power of the Voice prevailed. Before his death he knew I was having some doubts. That was why he said "Don't leave the priesthood". Because of him I went back to the seminary. It was then that beloved Swami came to me.
There is Power in His Name
J: How did He come?
FC: First there was this priest. His name is Rev. Father Raymond Arazu. He was to teach us a course in comparative religion. During one of his lectures he mentioned the name, Sai Baba.
J: Did he mention the name in a good way?
FC: Yes, in a good way. He is also a devotee.
J: There are many priests who are secret devotees.
FC: Yes, many! They worship and adore Swami in secret. Like Nicodemus in the Bible who goes to Jesus in the night. But this priest, Father Arazu is no longer a secret devotee. Otherwise, I would not have mentioned his name. In fact he now conducts Satsangs in his residence where people come to learn about Sai Baba and the universality of religion. Once he told me that he has won his freedom because the Church does not know what to do with him. They just let him be.
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| Don Mario's Book | |
J: Do you think that the Vatican and the Church's Hierarchy know that many priests are becoming devotees of Sai Baba?
FC: Yes, of course. The point is that as long as you do not come public in any form to express your faith and devotion in Swami, the Church can do little or nothing to you. For example, look at the case of Father Don Mario Mazzoleni who was excommunicated. Until Mario wrote his book, 'The Catholic Priest meets Sai Baba' he was safe. Actually, it was the book that got him into "trouble". The book became as it were, evidence against him in the Church's Court that he had gone against the faith of the Church. There are so many priests who come to Puttaparthi here secretly - and after having Swami's darshan, they return.
J: So the Church allows priests to be devoted to Swami but not come out in the open?
FC: It is not really allowed. It is not official. However, faith is something inside. It is beyond the reach of anyone. As long as that faith remains within, you are safe from the hands of the Church's Hierarchy. But when you begin to write and preach it openly, then they have evidence to hold on you for excommunication or other punitive measures.
J: Were you afraid to make the speech on Christmas day 2006, before thousands of devotees gathered round the Lotus Feet of Swami?
FC: No. It was His Grace. It was Swami's Love. If as a result of that Grace one gets into trouble, then it is a good trouble.
Complete Surrender - The Key to His Kingdom
J: Everybody is going to read about you because of Sai Baba and in the course of His discourse He mentioned you a couple of times. Do you think that the Hierarchy will know about such a discourse?
FC: The Church's tentacles are very strong. They will surely come to know.
J: You are certain that when you get back they are going to call you and talk to you?
FC: What Swami wills, will happen. 'Why Fear when I am Here?'
J: But you are not afraid?
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| "Afraid of what?" | | | "Why fear when I am here" | |
FC: Afraid of what? When we really realize the reality of Swami, then we know that there can never be any scope for fear in our lives. Nothing escapes Him. What He wills, will happen and His will is good for us because He Loves us. His will is love for us. So if He wills that I go through some sufferings on account of this… actually His will cannot be called suffering. Suffering is experienced when there is no love. Where there is love, the pangs of suffering are transformed into the joys of offering.
There are certain things you do for your loved ones. Although they are hard and painful, you enjoy doing it because you are doing it with love. For example, the mother that is giving birth to her child: it is suffering, yet it is not suffering. The pain of labour dissolves in the ecstasy and joy of the vision of the new born babe, clothed in beauty and beatitude. This is the power of Love; motherly love, Divine love.
When we do things for Swami, we are ready to shed the body because we are doing it for love of Him. It is He who loved us first. His love fills us with that spirit of sacrifice. There is no love without sacrifice and that sacrifice gives joy!
See all that the disciples of Jesus had to go through for the sake of His love! But they were happy. St. Paul went through a lot of difficulties to spread the message of Jesus. He was happy going through those troubles because he loved Jesus. In fact he would want to do it over and over again because of his love for Jesus.
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| Mother of Mothers | | | Our complete surrender | |
Swami willed that I speak. Without Him I could not have spoken. So He willed and I spoke. Then it is His business what He does with the speaking. When I have surrendered to Him, mine is to enjoy His play.
J: If somebody has given his life to Swami and he is not enjoying His play, what do you think about that situation?
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| The Divine Hug | |
FC: The person has not given. Although he claims to have given, in truth, he has not given completely. The person still thinks: "This is my life or at least part of it still belongs to me." In this case, he dictates to God the 'how', 'when', 'where', 'what', 'who' and 'why' of his life. When you dictate these circumstances, although you say you have surrendered to God, you actually want God to surrender to you.
You want God to adjust to your requests. And when He does not, you get agitated, dejected and disappointed. In this situation there are still two wills: your will and God's Will. In surrender, when you have really given your life to God, there is only one will, the Will of God. It is no longer you who lives, as St. Paul puts it, but God living in you. There is no ego, no 'I', no 'me', no 'mine'. It is all God, God, and God.
Dissolved in His Love
J: So what happened after the priest mentioned the name of Sai Baba?
FC: Swami came in my dream. He came in my dream and hugged me. That was my most thrilling encounter with Him. That was when I was still a seminarian training to be a priest. He came as pure energy… pure light… pure love… robed in radiant red… resplendent in Glory! He waved His Hand in a circular motion. I never knew He had that mannerism of waving His Hands to materialize things.
This wave did not create any particular object but pure energy. That wave of energy drew me to Himself and like salt (you know when you put salt into water how it dissolves?) I dissolved in Him. There was no separate me. I was just one with Him. His Love was like the ocean that overflowed the river of my heart. At that moment, I knew that He was the Voice that said to me nine years back, "What would you want to do with this life?" I knew it. It was not an intellectual knowledge. It was a spiritual awareness transcending the logic of reason.
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| How the Divine draws us onto Him? Watch Father Charles explain with experiences from his own life | |
J: It is knowledge from the Heart.
FC: Yes. Knowledge from the Heart: That intuitive feeling that tells the child: "This is my mother". How do you know your mother is your mother? It is knowledge from the Heart.
Sai - the Same Isa
J: Do you feel that Jesus' teachings have a different dimension for you since you came in touch with Sai Baba's message?
"It is written in your own Law that God said, 'You are Gods'. We know that what the Scriptures say is true forever and God called these people Gods... why then do you say I blashpeme because I said I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34) - Jesus Christ "You are the Full, you are God. God is you. Those who have experienced this highest wisdom can attain Oneness with the One, here and now." - Sai Baba (Sathya Sai Vahini P69) |
FC: When I met Swami I found Jesus. It was revelation upon revelation. Jesus' teachings and Swami's message are one. They cannot contradict because the Father and the Son are One. Jesus said nothing but what He has heard from the Father. He did nothing but what He has seen the Father do (John 5:19; 8:28 )
Let us take a few instances. One day, a scribe, an expert in religious law asked Jesus the most important commandment in the Torah. This Scribe was asking Jesus to give the very essence of the Bible; that which when grasped, everything is known and without which all knowledge is a waste. Jesus replied: "Listen, Oh Israel, the Lord, your God is One. And you shall love the Lord, your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your strength… and your neighbour as yourself". There is no commandment greater than this. (Mark 12: 29-31)
This commandment begins with a call to Silence: "Listen, oh Israel, the Lord, Your God is One." It is in silence that we experience the Truth of God. We have to learn the art of listening. To listen means to calm the agitations of the mind. It means mental stillness. In another verse the Bible says: "Be Still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10) It is in Stillness that we experience the Reality of God as the One without a second, the All-pervading, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Absolute, Infinite, Eternal One. God is One! There is no other. When you think that you are different from God, you create the illusion that seeks to separate that which is inseparable.
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| 'Like the string that holds the bouquet of flowers; Love is the Force that holds all together.' | |
All of us are in God as His Limbs, His body. In God we live and move and have our being, says St. Paul. God and His creation are inseparable like the Sun and its rays; the ocean and its waters; the tree and its branches.
Jesus said: "I am the Vine, you are the branches." Can the vine exist without its branches or the branches apart from the vine? Here we come to the very essence of Swami's message, the very core of the Vedas and the gem of all the scriptures: God is One, there is no other. All is Brahman.
The next sentence of the commandment is this ancient clarion call to love. "And thou shall love the Lord, thy God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength." Love! Love is the current, the energy, the strength, the source, the sustainer. To love God with all your heart is the path of Bhakthi yoga; that is union with God through pure devotion.
To love God with all your mind is the path of Jnana Yoga; that is union with God through the light of wisdom. To love God with all your strength is the path of Karma Yoga; that is union with God through selfless service.
These three-fold paths are not separate from one another. The string that unites them is love. Love is the current. When it comes to the heart it overflows in the bliss and ecstasy of devotion. When it comes to the mind it shines as the eternal light of wisdom.
"Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you" - Jesus Christ "Meet hatred with innate Love; meet grief with innate joy; meet anger with the shield of inner Peace. You are bound to win." - Sai Baba (Sathya Sai Speaks Vol 11 P80) |
When it flows through the hands (strength) it lifts and upholds one and all in selfless service. Without Love, the rituals of devotion, the rigours of intellectualism and the labours of our hands are all in vain! St. Paul says it all: "If I possess everything and I have no love, then I am nothing."
The Message is One
Can't we see that the message is one? These three-fold paths of devotion, wisdom and selfless service form the very core of the Bhagavad Gita as taught by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in the field of Kurushektra.
This is the message of Sai Baba: Love, Love, Love! He addresses us as "Embodiments of Love". He pins down these ancients teachings in simple catching phrases: "Love All, Serve All", "Help Ever, Hurt Never", "God is Love, Live in Love". Everyday, we see His Life as a perfect example of His message.
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| His Love... so Tender, so Pure | | | The Servant of All | |
Jesus said, "Love your enemies." This teaching is one of the greatest spiritual revolutions in the history of mankind. Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you. This is the primary teaching of Sai Baba: Love all serve all. Swami has not said; Love some, or only those with the same religious affiliation, or members of the family or those who love you. This is restricted love. Swami says: Love is expansion. Expand your heart to embrace all. Love All! Not only human beings but all creation, mountains, oceans, birds, animals, trees, stars… all creation is a manifestation of Divinity. Love them as such and let your service emanate from the roots of that divine love.
| What do Swami and Jesus say about Love? Listen to Father Charles |  |  |
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| "In Him we live and move and have our being" | |
The Christians must understand the reality of Jesus. If we do not understand the reality of Jesus it will be impossible to understand the reality of Sai Baba. And how can we understand the reality of Jesus? We can only understand the reality of Jesus when we understand our own very reality. This is because we are one with God.
J: It is like a chain.
FC: Yes, and we must find the source of that chain. It is within. For example, people often ask the question: "Who is Sai Baba?" But this question is not right. First you have to find out who is the one asking the question: "Who is Sai Baba?" Who are you? When the questioner does not know his own reality, how can he grasp the solution to the question he has posed?
First find out the reality of the questioner. When you find that out, then automatically you will know the reality of Sai Baba. This is because Sai Baba is one with you. The prompter of the question is the solution to the question. Know yourself then you will know that the Self in you is Sai Baba. Without this Self Knowledge it is a waste of time trying to grasp the reality of God.
Why did the Jewish religious Hierarchy and aristocracy do away with Jesus? Why did they kill him? Because they never understood who Jesus really is! And we are no better than them. After 2000 years, we have still not understood the reality of Jesus. That is the very reason for all the divisions and fights not only within the Christian churches, but also between different religious faiths.
The Divine Reality Revealed
For example, Jesus once said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me" (John 14: 6) Now that has caused a lot of confusion in the Christian forum.
J: Yes. So many of my Christians friends come to me and tell me: "Jesus is the Only Lord. Why follow Sai Baba when Jesus said He is the Only Way to the Father?"
FC: But who is Jesus? Who is that Way? Who is that Truth? Who is that Life? Is Jesus referring to His physical body or to the name "Jesus"? When Jesus said, "I am" what exactly does He mean? Now say, "I am".
I Am.
"I am" is also talking to you now. Who is that "I am"? It is God. Jesus does not see Himself as the body. Jesus does not see Himself as the Name. God has so many names. God is beyond name. Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM" principle. Jesus is pure existence – Satchitananda, the "I AM THAT I AM". Everything that says "I AM" is Jesus. That chair you are sitting on is saying "I am" otherwise you cannot sit on it.
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| And the Word was made flesh... | | | And the Word was God | |
In the Gospel according to St. John, Jesus told some Jews that Abraham (Aham Bhrama in Sanskrit means "I am God") longed to see His day and that he saw it and was glad. They retorted to Jesus: Now we know that you are demon possessed. You are not up to 50 years old and you claim that Abraham who lived thousands of years ago saw your day and was glad! Who do you think you are? Something must be wrong with you. You are out of your senses!
God said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " - Exodus 3:14 "In fact, "I" is the first Name of God. People address God by various names for their satisfaction and happiness. However, "I AM" is the true name of God" - Sai Baba (Sathya Sai Speaks Vol 35 p 286) |
Jesus replied: "Before Abraham ever was, I am." Now note Jesus' choice of words: 'Before Abraham ever was I AM'. Sure, Jesus' body is not up to 50 years. But the reality that has taken the name "Jesus" existed before the body. That reality is eternal, without birth and without death; beyond the dimensions of time and the specifications of space; transcending the limitations of name and the confinement of form. Jesus is the Divine Essence, the "I AM THAT I AM". In Exodus, chapter three, God revealed His Name to Moses in the experience of the burning bush as "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14 )
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am !" (John 8:58) - Jesus Christ "It has been said that this is My birthday; but let Me tell you, I have many Birthdays like this... I am ever New and ever ancient." - Sai Baba (Sathya Sai Speaks Vol 1 P164) |
We often miss this point. We limit Jesus to the form, son of Joseph, son of Mary, born in time, confined to Israel's culture. We limit Jesus to the name "Jesus". But the truth is that Jesus is beyond the name "Jesus". Jesus is not only for Christians. Jesus is not only for those who call Him "Jesus". Jesus is the "I am" principle. This "I am" is the Life in all, the existence in all, the Truth in all. Everything which breaths "I am" is calling the name "Jesus".
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| "I am I" | |
When you were born you have no name. But you have the awareness of being. That awareness is the "I am" in you. That "I am" is the Life in you. That Life is Jesus. Later on the label "Juan" was stamped on you for the sake of social identification and convenience. To confuse the label with the reality is a sign of ignorance.
Once, Swami's students were gathered around His Lotus Feet. Suddenly Swami threw a question to them: "Who do you say I am?" From every corner of the room came thunderous responses: "Swami, You are God!" And Swami said, "No, no". "Swami, You are Shiva-Shakti!" And Swami said "No, no". "Swami You are Atmaswarupa!" And Swami said "No, no". When the students had exhausted all their wits, they innocently gazed at Swami to supply the correct answer. And Swami said to them: "I AM I".
This is very important. This "I" is in everything as the first manifestation of Being. When you wake up from deep sleep, the first awareness is the "I" consciousness. Without that awareness, there is no activity. So when Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life …" what does He mean?
He means that "God is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to God except through God." In other words, God is the Goal and He is also the Way to the Goal. We can only reach God through God. We can only see the Sun through its rays. So what Jesus said is by no means exclusive to the Christians or to those who call God by the name "Jesus".
So if we don't understand our own inner Self, this "I" which Jesus refers to, we can neither understand the reality of Jesus nor that of Sai Baba. Swami has said: "Do not waste time in attempting to know Me. Do not waste time, because nobody can know Me. Therefore trying to know something which is not possible is a mere waste of time. You will also be wasting your energy. It is possible to realize me only on the day you realize who you are."
What is the Divine Truth of Jesus, Sai and us? Father Charles explains | | |
If we believe in Jesus, we will believe in Sai Baba
J: So you are saying in essence that if we have problems with Jesus, we are bound to have problems with Sai Baba.
FC: Absolutely. If we believe in Jesus we will naturally believe in Sai Baba. To be-lieve in Jesus is to be-alive in Jesus. To be-alive in Jesus is to live no longer for ourselves but the very life of Jesus. When we become one with Jesus, we discover not only that the Father and the Son are One but that we are One with everything
"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say I am?" (Mark 8:27 ) - Jesus Christ "When we ask the question, who am I? it will be right and appropriate to give the answer "I am I" - Sai Baba (Summer Showers in |
When you read in context the Gospel verses where Jesus made the statement, "I am the Way…" you will understand this truth. In that occasion, Jesus was telling His disciples that He was going to the Father and that they know where He was going and how to get there.
Thomas protested: "No, we don't know, Lord. We haven't any idea where you are going. So how can we know the way?"
Then Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me. If you have known who I am then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know Him and have seen Him.
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see Him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say are not My own, but My Father who lives in Me does His work through Me." (John; 14: 1-10)
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| "To have seen Me is to have seen the Father" | |
From the above dialogue it is evident that the disciples of Jesus did not know who Jesus really is although they have seen His physical body and they all know His name as 'Jesus'. But Jesus is beyond the name 'Jesus'. This we must understand. Sai Baba is also beyond name and form. And so are all of us. You cannot say you know Sai Baba because you know His Name and had gone to Puttaparthi to see His form. The day we realize the One behind the multiplicity of name and form, is the very day we know who Jesus really is. On that day we realize that Sai Baba and Jesus are one and the same reality. Until that day dawns, we must approach the throne of God with faith and a seeking spirit that is open to Truth.
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| "The Divine Father is in our midst" Father Charles at Christmas 2006 | |
Swami is the yeast that brings out the essence of the Bible. He is the seal of our faith in Jesus because He confirms us in our belief in Jesus. All that Jesus said and did, Swami is reaffirming, repeating and reconsolidating. Jesus is real! Jesus is alive! Jesus is God!
Do you know about the book that Swami materialized on Christmas day 1996 during His Divine Discourse which contains all the information about Jesus? Please visit our 2005 December feature article: Sai Reveals On Jesus |
The Single Religion of Love
J: Do you think that most of the Catholics who become devotees of Sai Baba are going to leave the Church and start going only to Sai Baba centers? Do you see the Catholic Church empty in the future and Sai Baba centers crowded with people?
FC: I don't. First we must understand that the Sai Baba Avatar has not come to start any new religion. Instead He has come to raise all religions to the same pedestal of glory and treat them as a single religion: the religion of Love. This has been prophesied by Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) in Ocean of Light.
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| He walks amongst us... Smiles just like us | |
Sai Baba Himself has confirmed this many times in His Discourses. Swami encourages us not to change the religion in which we are born into. Instead, Swami has said: "Each should practice his own religion sincerely. A Christian should be a good Christian. A Hindu should be a good Hindu. A Muslim should be a good Muslim. Let each one be a true practitioner of his religion. No one should criticize or hate another's religion…'All are one. Be alike to everyone,' declared Jesus. The one God is common to all."
The Sai Baba Avathar has come to restore the foundations of Eternal Righteousness (Sanathana Dharma) in all religions. Swami has not taken form in favour of any particular religion. He has come as the World Teacher; (Jagad Guru). When the Christian Church comes to the awareness of this Truth – God walking the face of the earth today – it is going to be her very rebirth. She is going to shine in her full splendour and glory.
Sai Baba has come to lead mankind to the "Complete Truth". Jesus once said to His disciples, "I have so many things to tell you. But you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will lead you to the complete Truth." That Spirit of Truth, Sathya Narayana, is here with us today.
To read about the influence of Sathya Sai Baba in the lives of Christians and their personal narrations of how Sai Baba made them become good Christians, true Christians and better Christians, please visit our 2006 April Cover Story: Be a Good Christian...A True Christian... A Better Christian |
The Church needs strong courage and deep humility to delve into this mind boggling event of our time. Swami is eighty one years now. In fifteen years he will leave this physical form. How can we miss this chance? When Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago we did not take Him seriously. The religious authority rejected Him. History repeats itself when we don't learn from its wisdom.
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6) - Jesus Christ "My Name is Truth. My Teaching is Truth. My Path is Truth. I am the Truth.... and since I am in everyone of you, you too are everlasting Truth. Do not doubt and descend into distress." - Sai Baba (Mahashivarath Prashanthi Nilayam 24:2:1971) |
It is time for the Church to take a leap of faith, a dare into the unknown. Without the fences of defense, she must approach the reality of Sai Baba with an open disposition that seeks to know the Truth. The church today needs the spirit and courage of Pope John XXIII who convened the Second Vatican Council and opened the windows of the Church to a lot of radical changes and rebirth.
I acknowledge that changes in the church will be difficult because of the strong emphasis on the infallibility of tradition. The Church treasures the past declarations of her ancestors to be beyond the margins of error.
This is why we are praying for the grace of Sai Baba. The Church is her bride. Only He can break her barriers of fear and restore her to that original splendour of Truth. This was our prayer on Christmas day and during that Holy Mass which we conducted in the Ashram with Swami's Blessings.
When this happens, when the Church accepts Swami, the consequent spiritual rejuvenation will draw all souls to her consoling breast. Instead of dying, she will be born anew.
Listen to Father Charles exposit the spiritual rejuvenation of the Christian Church | | |
Love Knows no Criticism
J: People who are Swami's devotees often criticize members of the Catholic Church because of their antagonism towards them.
FC: They shouldn't. Jesus is our example. On the Cross He prayed for the forgiveness of His executioners: "Father, forgive them for they do not know." You see, one cannot do wrong in knowledge. It is because they do not know that they act in that fashion. When you criticize those who act in ignorance, it means you too are ignorant. Instead we must pray for all to come to that Divine Knowledge; that dawn of the golden age which Prophet Jeremiah foretold of old: "Brother will not need to tell another: 'Seek God', because all will know God. (Jeremiah 31: 34)
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| My Life is My Message | |
This must be our attitude. When we have come to Swami, and accepted the Truth of Swami, and experienced the taste of His Universal Love, then we must spread this Love that knows no criticism, no hatred and no condemnation. The Love of Swami is like the Love of a million mothers. It is a love that overlooks the faults in the child, a love that uplifts what is good in the child, a love that knows no rejection even when the child has been abandoned by all. This must be our attitude.
Even Divine personalities are not immune from such antagonism. Jesus received the fullness of it. They called Him all sorts of names. They said He casts out devils by the power of Devil. And how could that be, Jesus asked them. How can the devil do good? It is a contradiction. The very nature of the devil is evil. The very nature of God is goodness, Supreme Goodness. Out of devil comes evil. Out of God, comes goodness.
J: It is like what some people are saying about Swami today.
FC: Yes. But see the goodness, the heavenly fragrance, the pure sweet love, the soul thrilling bliss, the Divine opulence, the radiation of supreme peace that is Swami! Who can impute a single sin on Swami? Those who have not tasted His Love, who have not experienced His touch, who watch from afar and relish from hearsay, talk from ignorance. How can you use the ruler to measure the depth of the ocean?
How can the fly tell the size of the elephant? Can a child describe the genius of the professor in atomic physics? Only the Spirit can comprehend the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:14) Why pay attention to critics who are self ignorant? If you must inquire, seek the Self Realized. Only they who have merged with the principle of God can give you a glimpse about the Truth of Sai Baba.
Jesus said to His critics; "Believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father." (John 10:38) Here Jesus Himself pointed to the authority of example as the indubitable test of what comes from God. Look at the example of Sai Baba whose life is His message. Who on earth has done just an iota of the services that Swami has rendered to Humanity – both on the physical, mental and spiritual dimensions of existence? We do not need to believe in Swami. It is enough if we believe in the works that Swami does. That alone will lead us to the realization of the Truth of Sai Baba.
To read more about the Universality of Divine Incarnations and the striking similarities that characterise their conceptions please visit our 2006 December Cover Story: When Divinity Descends... The Untold Story of Christmas |
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| Mind boggling Models of Selfless Service to Humanity | |
Why Fear when God is Here
J: You know about the Priest, Mario Mazzoleni and how he was forced out of the Church. Do you fear sometimes that something like that could happen to you?
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| St. John of the Cross | |
FC: There is absolutely no fear. In fact I am ready to shed this body if that will make my Christian brothers and sisters come to the Truth of Sai Baba. When we look through the annals of history we discover how much suffering and persecution many great souls had to go through in the hands of their contemporaries in order to enshrine the message of Truth and Love in the heart of humanity. People did not understand them during their time. But later they were made saints.
There are so many examples like Joan of Arc, John of the Cross, and Thomas Aquinas. They suffered so much for their brothers and sisters to wake up. When someone is lost in the oblivion of sleep, he needs a big shake to wake up. He needs a shake and a shout: Come on wake up! Wake up! Wake up man! See! God is here! Our Father, Sai Baba, has come. Wake up! If in this process of awakening this body suffers, then it is a good suffering.
J: In brief, could you tell us what Sai Baba and Jesus Christ mean to you.
FC:They are One. There is no Jesus separate from Sai Baba. They are one. I do not see the name or the form. I see the reality. "The Father and I are One," says Jesus. He told Philip; "To have seen Me is to have seen the Father, for I am in the Father and the Father is in Me."
You see, when you see two where there is only one, then you have got an 'I' problem. You are seeing double. When this 'I' problem is corrected, then naturally you will see only one because there has always been one not two. God is One.
To read more about the Extraordinary identity between Jesus Christ and Sai Baba, please visit our 2005 December feature article: Sai Baba and the Cosmic Christ |
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| "I and the Father are One." - Lord Jesus | |
For example, this is water. What do you call it in Peruvian language?
J: Agua.
Philip said to Jesus: "Lord show us the Father; that is all we need." - John 14:8 "When someone asks you, in great earnestness, where the Lord is to be found, do not try to dodge the question. Give them the answer that rises up to your tongue from your heart. Direct them to come to Puttaparthi and share your joy! Tell them He is in Prashanthi Nilayam." - Sai Baba (Sathya Sai Speaks Vol2 P164) |
FC: It is called "water" in English. In my language we call it "mmiri". In Latin it is called "aqua". The French refer to it as "eau" and the Germans by a different name. Do these different names change the reality of H 2O? No. Whatever name or shape - liquid, solid or gas - that water may assume, it does not change its reality. Water is one, but it has so many names and forms. In the same way, God is One.
We call Him Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Buddha, Baba. This one and unchanging God takes different forms (bodies) from age to age, with appropriate superhuman powers, according to the circumstances of the time, to teach man how to see the One behind the many.
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| The same Divine Consciousness in different Names and Forms through the Ages | |
So if you see names and forms, you see differences and you begin to fight. But when you see the reality, the question of how to reconcile Jesus and Sai Baba does not arise. It is like asking how you reconcile "agua" and "water". Do you understand? We have to cultivate the vision of Unity by going beyond name and form. It is only when we see Unity that we can experience Divinity. But when we see diversity then we experience hatred and fighting and all sorts of religious fanaticism.
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| God is One | |
The final elixir is Self knowledge; that is getting in touch with our own Divinity. When we penetrate that core of our Being, we discover also that it is the center of everything. The Divinity within is the same divinity in all, above all, below all, within all, around all, with all. Everything is Divine. This is the Kingdom of God that Jesus talked about.
The Little Fish in Search of the Ocean
A little story: once there was a little fish that lived in the mighty ocean. This fish was apparently disturbed. All her life she has been seeking to see the ocean. She has travelled far and wide in this search. She has read volumes and volumes of literature about this thing called "Ocean". She has also consulted many learned experts on this subject but no one could solve her dilemma. Finally, one day, she came to the whale and posed the question to the Whale.
She said: "Please brother whale hasten to the prayers of my heart. All my life I have heard about this thing called the "Ocean". So many people have preached about it and written about it. But I would want to see it, touch it and feel it myself. Please could you show me where I could find this "Ocean"? The big whale laughed to himself and said to the little fish: "Sister fish, look! This thing you are in now is the Ocean.
This thing you are touching, swimming in, living in, is the Ocean. It is above you, below you, around you, within you, all over you. In fact, you cannot live a minute without it. It is your very life principle." The little fish could not believe the whale. She said: "But what is touching me is water, ordinary water. I want to see the ocean". And she went away sad.
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| God is the Ocean | | | We are in its waters | |
You see, we are like the little fish in the ocean looking for the ocean. We are in God, above God, below God, around God, within God, as our very existence. Yet we are all the time looking for God. When we understand that we are one with God, it becomes very easy to understand every other thing. But when we miss this point, nothing else can hold together.
Be Happy! Always Happy! Ever Happy!
J: Can you give a final message to Sai Baba devotees?
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| Be like a child in Her Bosom | |
FC: Be happy! Everything has been done. Swami is the Totality, the sum and the substratum. There is nothing to add or to subtract. You are part and parcel of that Totality. Be Happy! To be is to allow Being to happen.
The result is the bliss of happiness, that is, union with God. Be a flute in His Hands and enjoy the flow of his Divine melody in and through you. Be a child in Her bosom and experience the thrill of riding in the Divine wings. She alone will take you to the goal of life. Everything gets done in Being. Do not dictate to God. When we want it this way and not that way, we block the natural and spontaneous flow of Being. Being is a disposition where we empty ourselves so that God may fill us.
Be Happy! Being does not mean non-action. "Oh, everything is done in Being, so I better sleep all day." This attitude is negative action. When you do not want to do, you are doing. It is repulsive action. When you want to do, you are also doing. It is compulsive action. Neither wanting nor not wanting, just be! Then God will act. That bubbling of Divine energy will rise from within you and propel you to the need of the moment. You become an instrument. For example, you have that recorder there. Before now you have not used it because the right circumstances have not arisen. The recorder does not dictate to you when, where and how to use it. It is just being. To be is to be an instrument in His Hands and then the infinite potentiality of Being will unlock Itself within you.
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| What is Swami's Will in our lives? Father Charles' explains, Christmas '06 | |
I often hear people say, "I am doing Swami's work!" Does Swami need any work? This is ego. Let go of this sense of doership. God is the Doer, yet He pretends not to do. Man does nothing, yet he pretends to be the doer. This is ignorance. Swami is doing His work through you. Allow Him. Be happy. God's Love is the only reason for our happiness, for our very existence. Be happy, ever happy, and then you will sing His praises all the time.
Sai Ram!
(Father Charles is a Roman Catholic priest of the order of the Holy Ghost fathers and brothers.)
Dear Reader, how did you like this story? Was it inspiring? Did it help you in anyway? Please write to us at h2h@radiosai.org.
Also, if you have any doubts or questions on any aspect of the Christian Faith in relation to the Teachings of Sai Baba, please feel free to send us your questions and we will try our best to solve your dilemmas. Thank you very much for your time.
- Heart2Heart Team
BENDICIONES
AMA A TODOS - SIRVE A TODOS - LOVE ALL - SERVE ALL
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